Are Rigid Stem Cams Sketchy?
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- Опубликовано: 5 апр 2025
- How strong are rigid stem cams? We tested several of the old style Wild Country Friends climbing cam. Rigid stems are not flexible if pulled around an edge and we wanted to see when they break if you break the rules. Thank you @_saintandre_ for donating some of these cams!
Our results are as follows:
#2 pulled straight down: sling broke at 13.07kn
Again - #2 pulled straight down with 5mm soft shackle in stem: stem broke at 16.74kn
#.5 pulled straight down: pulled out at 9.99kn
Again #.5 pulled straight down: broke rock and came out at 10.91kn
Again #.5 pulled straight down: broke rock and came out at 8.46kn
Again #.5 pulled straight down: came out at unknown force (damaged LS2)
#1 pulled around corner: sling broke at 12.14kn
Again #1 pulled around corner with soft shackle: stem broke at 25.07kn
#.75 pulled around corner: sling broke at 12.53kn
Again #.75 pulled around corner with soft shackle: broke stem at 13.22kn
#.75 Red and Black pulled straight out: sling broke at 16.23kn
Again #.75 Red and Black pulled straight out with soft shackle: came out and broke lobes at 17.29kn
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Gear makers should really start sending you pieces to test for free. Real world and transparent testing is so useful, keep up the amazing work man.
That’s exactly what the firearm community has been doing. It’s excellent content & information. Sometimes I think the reviews & tests are skewed though. I think it’s best to have no relationship with the companies at all like these guys so you get the best reviews. More expensive though, that’s why we donate though.
Well I can kinda see why they would not wanna do that since these tests are not exactly scientific and therefore somewhat unpredictable.
Everything they are doing in the video the manufacturers have already done a thousand times over. That's how they get their ratings.
@@clintflippo917I doupt they go to a rock face
Manufacturers need to get their stuff tested to standards in order to get it on shelves legally. One can assume they're doing more real world scenarios themselves aswell, but useful in a business sense is none of this.
I love my old rigid stem Friends in the Gunks and everywhere else. We tie 5.5 mm Kevlar cord through the 'lightening' holes the reduce the levering. Great testing. Makes me feel so much more confident in my old gear.
Awesome man! You're really helping us build more trust and integrity in our gear.
It is always amazing to see how much energy such a simple mechanical contraption can absorb. Like the little Cam just broke out a piece of solid rock and was only slightly damaged.
You have given me so much understanding and confidence in the gear we misuse
Tricam brake test next!
"I feel really safe right now"
Famous last words.
I had a whole rack of these cams in the day. The biggest size I probably used twice but it was more of a status symbol as it cost the earth and just about caught everything en route! Great invention for it's time.
I climbed a lot in the late 80s, 90s, and early 00s with a full set of fixed stem Friends. Still have that rack. We used Kevlar cord through the lightening holes for horizontal crack placements (see Gunks) to avoid the leverage of using the sling.
So much stronger than I thought! Thanks for doing these test!
Make a sleeve for your linescale units. Make it out of thick closed cell foam.
Great video! We had a big leader all on the second generation straight shaft friends, it was in a bomber placement in a horizontal crack but part of the shaft was exposed; it was a big fall and the shaft did not bend nor did the tape break (home made tubular knotted) I kept it, it is still today in my rack. We also had twisting falls on some wired "friends" they were destroyed (unworkable) and got chucked out. Great vid because it really puts these things we put our live in, into perspective with some good empirical data, instead of just anecdotal stories and hearsay. Your efforts are much appreciated!
Really useful content guys......appreciate the effort you put in these videos! I'm really interested in what the eye of a BD ATC GUIDE or PETZL REVERSO can take in guide mode. Sometimes there are two people's life on that piece. (Greetings from Transylvania)
I totally want to see how an ATC guide holds up, also that DMM pivot belay device. I use my ATC guide frequently in the guide mode.
This is why I always have the camming carabiner tied off to the anchor. Sketches me out knowing that the thin walls of the atc are all that keep the rope connected to the anchor...
@@gamingwithganky The thin walls of the Edlerid Jul series freaks me out. However the tests on this channel showed they destroyed the rope before breaking. But perhaps that's worse.
Look at the small pin that holds the pivot part of the DMM Pivot belay device. That takes the weak point of a ATC and makes it worse! Like you, I'd like to see these tested.
I'm gonna give my Polish buddy less flak for the rigid stems he actually has on his rack when we climb together.
I'm judging people less now as well haha
It takes 4 Polish guys to change a lightbulb. 1 to hold the bulb in the socket; 3 to turn the chair that he's standing on.
@@jasonelford4474 well ,the same activity in the US requires 7 people , the guy on the chair is massive overweight .
@@Mawi007iwaM Nah, it takes 7 Americans, 1 to screw in the bulb, 3 to turn the chair, and 3 lawyers to sort out any potential lawsuits !!
"Bomber rock" "I don't think it's gonna move" I've heard that one before... once before someone placed a cam behind the thinnest flake ever :D
Abolutely love this one, especially the real-world setting! I have a half dozen solid stem friends with ranging levels of corrosion, from "might consider whipping in a pinch" to "this sh*t will blow on aid ". I would love to get them broken using this as a baseline!
I appreciate this channel for helping me to trust my gear more.
Awesome video guys! What I would love to see are some tests on how much force is generated taking huge whippers, like 25-50 foot falls, some real Dan Osman shit
Production and editing are excellent, only complaint is inconsistent audio levels. Audio is significantly quieter than other videos but quality is good. Other than that keep doing what you're doing. It's good to see you doing what you love!
Mastering. A quality mastering tool and someone with a bit of tech savy can solve that issue.
I try to pay attention more and more to audio in our videos
Fascinating
This and your previous TCU test show the extreme outer forces cams place on the rock!
Firstly, great job, great video, great channel! Thanks a lot for this great content 😉👍
Would love a video about reslinged bd cams. Especially the newer ones with the wire loop.
Thought about reslinging them by my own because bd doesn't resling them in Europe.
Another aspect would be the weight and space of the used slings. Shouldn't be too bulky on the rack.
Thanks a lot guys.
Greetings from Bavaria. 😉✌️
Gonna echo a few other people... You should definitely reach out to manufacturing companies for free pieces to independently test. Its a little more comforting to me personally seeing the tests done on camera instead of just trusting that "Bill" at quality control making the charts for each company. Awesome videos!
In my early days as a climber my friend who's dad was a friend of Mark Valance, (the guy who helped start up Wild Country with Ray Jardine) got a hold of some of the first freinds availiable in the UK, (there's a lot of friends of friends with associations with friends going on here!).
Me and my friends took the friends, (groan!) up to Frogatt edge in Derbyshire and used one whilst climbing the route Valkyrie. It got stuck in the introductory crack because we placed it with the cams too fully retracted, then we made things worse by allowing it to walk it's way deeper into the crack until we could no longer reach it.
We then tried all kinds of things to get it out including pulling it from above, of course it just walked even further into the crack and ended up with the stem pointing upwards.
So we all ended up hanging on the rope trying get the thing loose with brute force, it didn't work but instead eventually broke the stem!
When Mark Vallance found out he ended up going up to Froggat with a chizel to get the thing out since a broken friend on a famous and often climbed route like Valkyrie would be bad publicity. (Sorry Mark!)
It did prove one thing however, friends, once located are pretty well bombproof protection, but not of course if you place them upside down.
We now have Friends with flexible stems that are a bit less prone to walking and a lot more resistent to breaking in the rare event that they are placed with the stems orientated horizontally or even upside down.
The eternal march of progress!
Keep up the good work dudes!
Thanks for the vid bud. Always appreciate all the free information you put out for us!
100%😎
🙏
I still have an original set of Friends from the 1970's, that only come out for aid climbing. Albeit, they're probably still fine, still in good shape. They are all tied with good ole kevlar cordage. Until watching this series of test, I just figured they would break at the tie in eye, but WOW - amazing that most all of the failures were either the slings or the rock blew out. Even so, it was amazing to see that you could get them to fail in so many different ways.... None the less, they have been a friends to me and many climbers.
I’m certainly happy it’s you standing close and me watching for cheap. Sweet content. Stay safe...ish.
Very cool vid, but made me sad that those old friends got destroyed.
On the contrary. I love to see them serving a good purpose and going down in flames at the end of their lifetime instead of rotting away in storage or getting thrown away
@@patrickhaller669 I see your point, but having climbed with them back in the day, they still have a place in my old heart and mind - and it made me a bit sad to see them getting destroyed.
I still have my original solid stem friends cams and I still trust them all these years later. You have to put more thought into their placement but they still hold up well enough for me.
Awesome, as usual.
Btw, would be nice to compare strength between wet and dry rope. I've heard, that wet rope has only 50% of its strength and I donť want to believe it.
Doesn't that depend on the rope treatment?
Yea. I don't believe it too. I want to freeze a rope and do that as well
Thanks for making these videos! I'm surprised you didn't do a Gunks tie-off. When you do Totems, I'd love to see all the different ways you could load them (standard, on the inner bar-tack, only two lobes engaged, flares [outward, along the axis of the axel], two lobes clipped through where the sling connects).
I used the tie off for years on my forged friends. Seeing these tests I’m fairly confident the cord would break first so finding a 5.5 tech cord pull test on biners would be the closest equivalent. I’d then take a few kN off because the stem hole is a harsher bend. The German mag Panorama lists a triple fisherman’s loop at 21.2kN.
Amazing video, very well done
6 an 7 mil cord tied with water knots is what I've used on an old rigid cam. Seeing that break and also with more or different angles on the corner. Interesting! Thanks!
I dont even climb like that & I love these videos.
I climbed on the rigid friends from the time they came out on the market and still carry them on my rack. When I placed my friends in a horizontal crack a lot of times depending on how far out the stem protruded I would tie off the stem closer to the crack.
When I started climbing you bought friends and hexes without slings! 😮 And you put your own rope in. Seems crazy now! Equally, in Glencoe there’s at least one route with wooden blocks hammered into cracks and then rope put round as a running belay (Everest 53 training route)
"Should I put my hat back on?"
Lol.... ya'll are doing great. Keep it up!
Love breaking cams!! Having a lot of older pro it’s nice to see what they can take.
I know I always wonder on my older gear
@@HowNOT2 Can’t wait till the next one!
send them in!
CONGRATS Master!!!! Thank You very much!!!!! CHAPEAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best Wishes.
I’ve got cams and hex’s slung with 7mm cord with a double fishermans- its how all the old Hexs used to be slung
BD tested many loop configurations. They settled on the current strange double back webbing when they observed the weak point to be that the webbing was cut buy the cam eye. The part you put your thumb through.
I'd be interested to see how 7mm cord performs in this situation. If it didn't get cut, it would be a good solution. I fear it might get cut though.
@@Davidadventures they’re old WC Friends so no thumb loop
@@alexmallace4886 Good point. I thought you were talking about newer cams too. I have a few I'd like to resling.
I have no idea what's going on or what most of this does. But for some reason I just keep watching along.
What do you think about cutting out a 3/16 or 1/4 lexan screen cover for the dyno? Drill some 1/4 holes where you could still push the buttom with a little punch, using a thick bead of black or gray rtv adhesive sealant to glue the lexan on should give it some good cushion, while still making it easy to swap out with a utility knife. Just thinking outloud 😄👍
Had the same thought. Great call
Shoot. With how often this happens to me... I just might!
@@HowNOT2 see if the LS3 team can include them in the build. Cant be that hard
Thanks!
I got quite a few of these rather cheaply secondhand, very interesting to see how they break :)
4000lbs?! Crazy. Was not expecting that kind of safety factor
so solid shaft cams are not total crap?
"If people should be adding their own slings..." LOL When I started climbing sewn slings on gear didn't exist. You tied your own slings, made your own quick draws, etc. Original Friends didn't come with slings either. The first time I saw a sewn sling I thought it was sketchy, like those stitches would just blow apart. I knew my knots would hold, not so sure about some guy's sewing machine. LOL
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the old rigid cams. People climbed and fell on them for years.
Interesting video! have you ever tried break testing knotted slings used as protection (placed in cracks)
It’s is very very high on the list. Where can I learn more about that so I test the right stuff?
@@HowNOT2 I honestly have no clue, I have never used it myself but I'm interested in starting to use it... All I know is that it is a big thing in the Czech climbing scene... sorry
Basically you use round slings of different girths with a knot tied into the end of them, that you place in cracks. The knots themselves aren't the difficulty with this type of securing. It's common to use either a double figure eight, in really big cracks sometimes monkey fists or if you're running out of gas and you have to tie it on the run, double overhand knots, but these are less safe. There is another special slingknot that is pretty common, but I don't know the english expression for it. The placement is the more important thing - you put the knot of the sling in cracks that get more narrow at one point. You have to look Out, that the knot ist a bit loose while you place it, so that it can expand, wenn you fall into the sling. The generated force while pulling down on the sling will tighten up the knot and so the knot will expand and fulfill the crack, without slipping because it gets more stuck in the crack. Because of the special structure and rough surface of the sandstone here in the Saxonian Swiss and in the Czech sandstone areas right across the border, it allows the textile to stick to the Rock with this unique style of protection. In other types of rock with less traction in the surface, it wouldn't work out like this. Greetings from the Elbsandsteingebirge.
If you are interested - a friend of mine who is a fan of your channel, is writing a book how to start with sandstone climbing in the local areas of the Czech and Saxonian sandstone. I'm pretty sure, he would share his knowledge with you👍
girth hitched all my cam slings bout 10 years ago. why carry double the amount o biners to have extendable draws?:)
Seems like it'd be pretty easy to print a TPU/Rubber bumper for it, recess the buttons and screen. Wonder how it'd impact the accuracy
So if you rigged a pulley to pull someone up a climb would you be multiplying the force?? Would this pull your anchors?
Loving these videos! Have you ever tested a figure of 8 only half or a quarter rethreaded? Would be super interesting cuz it seems to hold and if its strong enough it would make stopper knots pointless?
Would be interesting to see break tests of aluminum carabiner’s that have been left on the anchors and lowered off of way too many times. I know I have pulled a few off of routes in the Red River Gorge that have gotten pretty thin over time.
Thanks for such a good content!!
Always fascinating to see these "myths" tested.
One thing I've always wondered about is the strength of various bowline versions. I was taught that (if tying in with a bowline) you should only climb using a 2 turn or a retraced bowline. Any chance you can test this?
once i get the drop tower, I plan on going down the bowline rabbit hole. Dynamic tests and slow pull
You mentioned sth about breaking TotemCams ? When ? :) Cant wait it ! :D
Few weeks. I still gotta edit it. Spoiler alert. They are pretty rad haha
@@HowNOT2 legend has it, you will be banished to an afterlife of fiery hell if you break test a black totem
@@jglantz08 the black totem is just a good piece now, it's not above everything else now that zero friends/z4s/dragonflies exist.
Lol is this the first time you've read a black totem joke? I agree, in principle that totems are no better than dragonflies, aliens, or X4s (dont love C3s, but most ppl do)... except in the black totem size, where totem is better. Z4s are gimmicky trash, the accordion falls apart way to quickly, esp if used in a gear anchor
02:39
Are all these slings rated for 14kN!? They all break below that!? 😳
Rian, great video!
Have you found anyone to make those cam calculations you sked for on the last video?
I'm willing to help with that if no one has already!
For the forces it puts on the sides of rock? I want pressure plates that I can hook up to a labjack and SHOW the force as we pull, pull sideways, have uneven cams. Like i'd love to get nerdy with it. ryan@slackline.com if you got ideas. There will be a delay fyi... i'm 250 emails deep right now haha
@@HowNOT2 hahahaha no problem!
I'll reach out via e-mail.
nice experiments
purple cam, da real mvp
Great vid!
Would it be possible to attach the dyno on the tree so it wouldn't move?
Not exactly. Some component of the force is in the guys hands. They would get an artificially lower number.
Those Friends were the final generation around 99' - works of art. Just as strong as anything modern and no heavier either. I was sad watching this but then I found the video where you kill brand new Totems. Yay. All better 😅
Great video!
Kinda sad to see those getting broken, i still use those when climbing with my old school parnters. Ill fall on them all day
Wait there are folks out there that don't tie their own slings on cams? I use threaded water knott and 9/16s.
it's like project farm video where he compares every product standards..
3:45 yes wild country does heat treat the aluminum. Look at the grain size
Still in the florida keys I see.
It would be interesting to see how strong is purcell prusik tied from 6-7mm cord. With different ways to attach it to harness.
Me too. I use those things also. I want to test it with drop tower. Will be interesting
dang that cam at 14:15 is about as messed as I've ever seen one get
10:14
Just an idea how crazy this is, this is enough to lift an average pickup truck.
The "Cam" is what started to bend.
3:46 brittle fracture surface!
Whats the average force on the system in a fall?
I would really be curious about tests that include testing whether cams hold in marginal/bad placements. could just simulate a factor 1 fall or something and drop a bag of weight with just a regular climbing rope. you might be able to do this one without actually breaking stuff :)
cams are strong AF if placed well, but I think the idea of "what placement is good enough" is kind of an up in the air question that changes depending on who you talk to... sure there is a well known "acceptable camming range" that changes depending on the cam, but you're not always going to get the ideal placement in the real world, so what can you "get away with" if necessary I think would be awesome to know.
We always say- well at least that poorly placed cam will slow me down...
@@Davidadventures as in a fall resulting in brain damage? or... make you climb morer carefully? lol
I know you guys are rock climbers but could you guys test ice screws?
There’s a few ice screw tests online..on RUclips I think. Big loads, way more than you’d think
I was belaying a guy at Lee Vining. He fell and pulled out 3 screws, fell the entire rope length then he continued to fall below me and came to a stop in the snow. I never got a tug in a ~300 foot fall! His rack fell off his body in his tumbling fall. He got up and was so pissed that he had lost his rack of screws in the snow.
@@Davidadventures crappy ice? Funny how surviving uninjured changes your perspective :-)
[wakes up at Harden Flat with something poking through deflated sleeping pad, finds piece of cam lobe] WHAT TERRIBLE CLIMBING ACCIDENT HAPPENED HERE??
maybe, a plexiglass cover/armour for de dino can help (?)
Do you think cam can be test with dynamic force instead of static force?
My bigest concerne with cam is the friction between the lobe and the rock, I think it would slip out of the rock with a much smaller dynamic force.
Kinetic vs static friction : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction#Static_friction
Someone can back my hypotesis with mechanical physic? :D
They were pulling on them, correct?
@@timfredrickson3889 too slow, my idea is to pull so quick (like a fall) that the spring will not have the time to apply enough normal force on the rock and the cam will slip.
If the cam slip just a little bit it's now just kinetic friction (not static friction) between the lobe and the rock.
@@maximecastilloux9049 the initial force to cause the slip would still be the same, no? Only if the initial fall exceeded whatever fail point exists will the static friction force be relevant. I think it’s worth testing how much force that initial jerk applies, but that’s pretty hard to test, you’d need some sort of dummy weight and a better location
This could be the types of tests he does on the drop tower he's building.
I'll be doing more testing on this because I don't know if it affects it. Drop tower will help and then maybe bolting a boulder, lifting it and "making" an outdoor drop tower" is going to also help :)
I think the audio can use some improvement. Just always seems quite and not as clear. Great video either way.
I've got one of those cams
Dude, those were really pretty stiff neck cams! Why'd you break 'em? My stiff neck cams are just plain old aluminum color. After watching this video, I'm thinking it's time to take them out of retirement. But what will all the other climbers say 🤔? I'll tell them to watch HowNOTtoHIGHLINE. 😱
Why is the soft shackle so strong
Helmet impact tests please.
You didn't tell us what a normal fall would equal to so we have no reference to how good that is so maybe in the future think of the people that know nothing about this, but overall great vid..
so..... totems?
If you are standing next to the rocks that is getting splintered to bits. You should wear protective gear for your eyes! :O
Is Amsteel dynamic?
Dyneema is a very static material. :) Not meant for shock absorption.
@@rachelhasbruises that’s what I was thinking too that amsteel was a static textile, but I didn’t know dyneema and Amsteel were interchangeable. I guess it’s a moot point tho since it’s comparing static to static. Only leaves the question of safety margins, weight, and price as main considerations?
Amsteel is to dyneema as Kleenex is to tissues.
Static sling is fine.... if you use a dynamic rope to clip to these things. I don't think soft shackles are really practical on cams tbh.
@@HowNOT2 thanks for the clarification and I thought I detected a smidge of sarcasm with the recommendation to use soft shackles as slings haha. If Amsteel is a trade name does the braid or proprietary part of the textiles construction give it any benefits over other brands. Content suggestion: does the different “braiding” patterns on Kernmantle ropes affect strength in any meaningful way? Or is it all just pretty decorations and a protective layer over the core strands and if most of the strength is in the core is there a stronger weave? Strongest weave? Strongest weave vs price point? If you’ve already done some content on this point me that way. If not I’d certainly tune in to see some break test results. Awesome channel man and thanks for taking the time to present the information and then backtrack and answer my silly questions.
Ah shoot I had some old Russian cams and nuts from my mentor but I got rid of them cause I got newer gear wish I had thought of donating them
we got some. still figuring out how to test them. they look strong af
@@HowNOT2 oh yeah I would still take a huge sip on the ones I had but I just upgraded cause it was time but I know for sure those things are made to last forever!
As a non-climber, I would be most afraid of the cam just “slipping” out of the crack.
I think the friends are strong enough if you break rock instead of cam.
Please don’t totally give up on high line content!
I won't. Climbers are the only way to grow the channel at this point. Very likely going to do at least 2 good slack videos a month. Still working on textbooks too.
AND Rigid Friends are STILL lighter than Black Diamond ultralights and Wild Country Heliums.
09/11/24 day 10 test SP in TRS system
Rigid Friend woth gunks tie off
Those things are antiques, stop breaking them ;)
There are some obvious conclusions here: slings are the typical weak point, rigid friends are much better than everyone gives them credit for.
If I sent you some sketchy Ukrainian cams... would you break em?
I have some. They look very hard to break haha. I need to up my mobile break tester set up first. Thanks though
Humans are super burly.
literally what is the point of progressively loading climbing gear like this - it proves very little about it's strength taking a fall